What It's Like to Be a NYT Best-Selling Author Ft. Abi Dare

Ever wonder what it takes to be at the top of your creative game? A best-selling author? An award-winning artist, editor, entrepreneur [insert your skills here]? Abi Dare breaks it down with humor and relatability as she shares her insights on creativity, success, and being a best-selling author.

She is the author of The Girl with the Louding Voice, winner of The British Book Award for Best Book of The Year, The Nigeria Prize for Literature, and many others. She’s a sought-after speaker, teacher, and writing coach.

We talk about her journey to mainstream success, what it takes to stay humble while striving for greatness, and how to profit from your passion as a creative entrepreneur.

Want to work with Abi? Click here

Check out her latest book, And So I Roar here

Thanks for being here! If you'd like to support the show, please visit buymeacoffee.com/remiroy to give a one-time or monthly gift. 

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Thank you for being here. I see you. I appreciate you.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_04 0:00

For me, the biggest parallel mode I need to get a traditional publisher. And it's like going through the proverbial video for me. Once that happened, I said, okay, well, at least you know some people are gonna read my book. All this while I've been blogging, I've never gone to the back end to look at the stats. And I think the first time I went in there, I saw that I had over a million. I went into proper panic mode. I was thinking, oh my goodness, a million people. I cannot deal with that. I need a better space to be able to handle whatever success might be.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

And I think that comes from going through a period of you're listening to the Driven Introvert Podcast, the place to be for dreamers, doers, and entrepreneurs who are ready to burst the dreams, callings, and ideas the Lord has placed in their hearts. Do you sense that God is calling you to step out and do something new, but you're held back by fear and uncertainty? Do you struggle with believing that you can do great things because of your quiet, reserved, and introverted nature? Welcome here. I'm Remy Roy, your host and founder of Sheepacked.com. I'm an author, an entrepreneur, a creative, and a committed trier. I'm here to help you get unstuck and make progress on your God idea. Let's go. Hi friends. So the first time I wrote online publicly was in 2007, when I discovered Facebook for the first time. I knew I was a writer, but the experience of sharing my work was both very exciting and really, really scary for me. Then I moved on to blogging and I met some really amazing writers, so passionate about their writing and you know sharing stories. One of the people I met during that time was Bimbi Lads, the blogger. You might know her as Abby Dari, the New York Times bestselling author of the book, The Girl with the Louding Voice. Abby is here with me in my virtual studio today. She's a sought-after speaker and teacher. She's really passionate about storytelling, and she actually recently delivered a storytelling masterclass at Harvard Business School. Very cool stuff. Abby and I talk about her book, The Girl with the Louding Voice. We talk about that time she shut down her blog people because she was overwhelmed by the attention it was receiving. We talk about what a lot of us do not get about being a best-selling author and somebody who is really celebrated in that way. We talk about the field businesses, Abby Dabblin. Very funny stuff. And Abby gives us a sneak peek into her new book, And So I Raw, which is a sequel to The Girl with a Loud Invoice. And it's out now. If you're a creative with a desire to profit from your passion, to profit from the gifts, the talents, and the skills that you have, you cannot afford to miss this episode. Let's go. Hi, Abby. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

It's such a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Oh, it is an honor to have you here. I feel like I have known you for such a long time because I've been aware of you and your work since about the mid to late 2000s. I believe that was when I started, you know, really uh blogging. I mean, everyone knew, or at least everyone in our space knew Bimby Lad, right? I read your blogs, your stories, the early books, publications, and all of that. And I'm really happy for you, happy for your success. And it's been so amazing to watch. So it's it's it's a special honor to have you here today.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

In uh the year 2020, that year that should not be named, I had fallen off the face of the internet for quite a while for different reasons. But I remember one day I went on Instagram because I was looking for something and I saw a video, and that video was of you on the Today Show. I was stunned, like it just blew my mind. I was like, this is amazing! Like while she did it. Tell me how that felt. Was it ever a goal for you to go that far with your writing to become a New York Times bestselling author? How did it feel when you accomplished that? When you got that call, or when it was clear that you know your book made the list, how did it feel when that happened?

SPEAKER_04 4:11

Absolutely incredible. I think that um you know, it wasn't it was a prayer of mine. You know, I remember having a conversation with God and saying, Look, I love to write. I've always bought you know, I've always wanted to write, it'd be great to just do great things. But when you say great things, you don't think about what that might mean. You just think you want to do great things. I for me, great things was more people reading my book because I books because I loved, as you know, I love to write, I love to tell stories. I've always been that kind of person, right? From girlhood into adulthood. And so for me, I just really wanted more recognition for my work. That was the most important thing for me. But you know, I remember I was in the library when I got that call, I was trying to work on the second book, and I got a call, and it was it was my it was my editor's no, actually, no, no, no. Yeah, I got the call saying I was gonna be on today's show for my editors, and I remember just I couldn't scream because I was in the library, it was very quiet, so I was like, you know, kind of thing. I can't imagine. And then I called my family, you know. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to New York. Oh my god. And then I've been to New York and and and then I flew back, and then the book debuted, and that was at midnight when my agent called me and said, I know it's late at night, but this has just happened, and I just was just swimming. The kids were asleep, you know, they woke up like what's going on, what's going on? So it's a feeling you'll never forget. I'm so grateful. Yeah. Very humbled by everything. I think it's more of a humbling thing because you think this tiny me who wrote this book in non-standard English to see it being so loved and so appreciated. I I you know, I always say you think for the grace of God go I. Um it's all a lot of grace.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yeah. So the the there wasn't any specific goals attached to your writing, like you wanted more recognition for it, but what did that mean for you? Did you have something specific in mind?

SPEAKER_04 5:57

Yes, for me it was loads and loads of people. I didn't quantify that, loads and loads of people, loads of people reading my work. And I knew that for that to happen, it had to go through potentially had to go through traditional publishing routes. I you know, I yeah, I you know, I self-published for a while, so I don't look down on self-publishing at all, but I know there's there's a lot of limitations to self-publishing. So absolutely, um, so for me, the biggest prayer was Lord, I need to get a traditional publisher, and it's like going through the proverbial eye of the needle, really, really difficult to do. So for me, once that happened, I said, Okay, well, at least you know, some people are gonna read my books now. Banging on doors and say, read my book, read my stories. Um, so yeah, so that for me was the definition of success. But you know, we we tend to limit ourselves. Now I've learned to just trust and put my work out there and not think hard too hard about how far it will go. For me, it's now for me, it's about putting my absolute best possible work within what I can control, um, yeah, and believing that the the it would it would develop its wings and its legs and to go to where it's meant to go. I think that should have been my mantra from the beginning, trusting God and just giving my absolute best shots as opposed to panicking and thinking it's still gonna happen for me.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

You know, yeah, yeah. I I love that definition of success. I think it's it's it's difficult to get to that place from the beginning because we have all sorts of expectations for the things that we want, you know. Let's let's talk about success from a different perspective. I read an I listened to an interview uh that you did uh a couple years ago, and you talked about when you were a blogger and you got to the point where your your blog became popular and people were reaching out to you, and that success shocked you and you shut it down because you were not prepared for that. And in my mind, I'm like, that is that is so I don't know, I don't understand that. That is so surprising for me. Tell me about your mental space at that time. Why were you afraid of that success and how did you deal with that? And what's different about success now?

SPEAKER_04 8:02

I think that you know, so we're talking nearly 20 years ago. So I was much younger. I I've never been somebody that likes um, I've never been an out there kind of person, even though my personality is very I'm very happy, very extroverted. But when it comes to the public space and the internet, even till today, I still struggle with social media. I mean, I see people put a lot of stuff out there, and I've never been that kind of person. So seeing the kind of um well, it almost felt like an overnight thing. I've all this while I've been blogging, I've never gone to the back end to look at the stats. And I think the first time I went in, I saw that I had over a million hits. I went into proper panic mode. I was thinking, oh my goodness, a million people know about this blog. Like, I cannot deal with that. I'm not, you know, I and I was a student in the UK, I'm like, I'm here to study, I need to focus. And it was because it was very personal, it was about my life, it was about my then fiancee who's now my husband. It was all about these things, and I felt like I'm putting other people's lives out there and without permission, and it there's just something about knowing that oh my goodness, and I think fiction is a safe space. Um, I'm not saying I wouldn't write non-fiction, but you know, that was very much me, my life. You make people laugh. I think that's what was endearing about it. But why was I putting my own family's life out there at the ex just without permission? So I I could not deal with that. I couldn't deal with all of that. So I shut it down. I think you know, the fear of success that some people deal with now. I think I'm obviously I'm much older, I write fiction, I can control what I'm saying, we're going to interviews and all of that. So it's slightly different. I think I'm in a better space mentally, emotionally, spiritually, in every way to be able to handle whatever success might be. And I think that comes from going through a period of like I call it like a desert land, um, a time of just trying to find my own feet and figuring out who I am and realizing that everything for me is now from a point of gratitude. So I'm not, I I guess I never wanted to be big-headed, and maybe that scared me, but now I think I know how to handle that. I I don't know how to be big-headed, um, and I'm not afraid now of becoming big-headed and becoming unrecognizable. I I despise that. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

It's just it does. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

So I think that's what scared me of being unrecognized.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

Unrecognizable by family and friends.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

I think it's a it's a good, it's a good place to be, and it's a good place to constantly be because you don't want to get ahead of yourself. You don't want to get ahead of God. You don't want to be prideful, because that is the cardinal sin, right? Pride. Like, what do you do with that? And and like you said, the process of actually growing and going through difficult circumstances, of being in situations where yes, you want to be successful, like you said, because you you want people to see your work, but there will be times when you struggle and it doesn't happen. And all of those things build up to just make you wiser. It makes you, yeah, just wiser with life, with things of God, with with even your creative process. You learn and you grow and you become better. So I guess that evolution that actually helps you manage the success better now than you know, because I was thinking of like how how does what I mean? Come on, we're all like creatives and we want to succeed, right? We want to succeed, we want people more people to see our work.

SPEAKER_04 11:30

Yeah, I've got very creative children, and I say to them, you know, it's it costs me nothing to put you your gift and all of that out there on it on social media, but I would never do that to them because they're not this is a very personal thing to me. I'm not saying people that put their children out there and celebrate them, but I feel like they're not ready emotionally mentally to handle what comes with the demands, the expectations you give yourself. I've been through trying to write my second book, and oh my goodness, it's a completely different thing coming from a very successful debut that you didn't expect to be such a success, and then trying to write a second book, and all the pressure that comes with that, and dealing with grief, I lost some family members as well. So dealing with all of that and trying to write, thank you. Trying to write was hard, and I'm thinking, I just imagine if I wasn't if I'm not who I am, and able to take each day as it comes and show for myself and know when to step back and say, I'm not ready for this right now. I need food, you know. That's why it took about four years in the in the of trying to get to the second book. So, you know, it's important to allow yourself to reach to grow up to the point where you are able to take the load and the burden of success because it can come with burdens, um, yeah as well as a lot of joy.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

That is true. That's amazing. That's such an insightful talk. Uh, let's talk about the book. Because Adjuni, this book, I mean, I felt I felt all the emotions reading this book. I laughed, I cried, you are funny, you're a very funny writer, you know, because I mean, I think one line that I remember when she was talking to Tiadada when she said, Why did you lock your teeth inside Ion Gates? Like, I was reading it by myself in my room and I just died laughing. I laughed, I cried, I felt the longing, all of it, right? And for our friends who are listening who are not familiar or hasn't read the book, Abidare's best-selling book is titled The Girl with the Louding Voice. So, Abby, the choice to write this book in broken English, tell me about that. Like, how did you struggle with that? How did you think how it'll be perceived? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:58

I I no, yes and no. So for those that read my blog back then, you know, I I had this character called Jim O. Um, um, I can't remember what I used to call him, I think if I can't remember, but I it was somebody that I knew, a real light person, um, that had a funny way of speaking. When I say funny back then to me, it was funny because I came from a reasonably privileged background. And so anytime I go to visit this family member that had this boy living with them, you know, I used to laugh at the way he used to say rice. Instead of rice, you say guys. Um, and so I used to blog about that. And for some reason, that particular blog used to be some of back then when I would blog about this guy and the way he speaks, the kind of reaction I'll get from readers was so, and and also even in my real life, when I talk to my friends, I I tend to use non-broken English sometimes to to express myself, no standard English, sorry. It's just who I am. So my friends sometimes say, you know, when when you when when Abby wants to be ras, she can be very ras, right? So so when I when I came to writing a girl with loud voice, you know, trying to talk about very serious things here, talking about real life issues plaguing young girls in in rural Nigeria, rural Africa, across the world, actually. Yeah, but especially chill girls from rural areas, because then many of these areas are underdeveloped, and you know, education is not uh is not a forefront investment for the government, yeah, for many of these areas. And so writing about a girl like that, it was important for me to divorce myself as a writer for my experiences. And the only way I could do that was obviously because I'm writing was through her voice, her writing voice. So it made sense to write it in a way that would mimic some of the house girls that I knew growing up, and not just me. I remember having a conversation with my husband um as well. He had a lot of house housemates, and I a lot of you know, some of the inspiration that I had with writing, a lot of us would come from conversing with him because he had so many stories, funny stories about his mates. Um they they went through a lot. I think they went through about 50. So he compared to us that like maybe about eight, they his mother was churning maids out, like you know, it was getting out of fashion. So he had a lot of stories, both male and female. Um, you know, house helps in this case. So it was important for me to make her as authentic as possible, and to do that, I knew that I didn't want her to speak Pidgin English because even the president speaks Pigeon English, you know, it's universal way of communicating, and I and I had to figure out a way that would I would write a book that would be something that I could absorb myself without it giving me a bit of a headache. So it came with from my own natural way of gisting, plus you know, learning, bringing back all the stuff that I knew our maids used to say, some of the stuff my husband's maids used to say. My then daughter, my then two-year-old daughter, she was about two or three, who was coming into English language for the first time, even though she had never lived in Nigeria or you know, born in the UK, but she's coming into the language for the first time. And when you're coming into a language for the first time, you're kind of feeling the edges of the language and trying to absorb it and understand what it feels and tastes like. Yeah, so she would say some absolutely hilarious things, and I would run after her and be like, Oh my gosh, I need to use this. And so, you know, all of those enriching experiences came together. But at the time, I was writing the book to for as part of my master's my thesis, my dissertation for my master's in creative writing at uni. So for me, it was about getting a distinction at first. But the I'll be honest and say the reaction from my supervisor was what changed everything. You know, I walked into his office and he took one look at me and said, Abby, I don't say this often, but this is publishable material. And he had come from judging the book of prizes. So when he says something, I take it seriously. So when he said that and he said, Abby, do you think you can finish this? I said, I will try. I don't know if I can. It was just 3,000 words at the time. And he said, Well, you need to sustain this voice to the end of the book. And if you can, get onto a winner here. So I just said, Look, I'm gonna be typical sort of bimbi lads here, be funny, gist, let her be sassy, let her be what whatever she is, but keep the themes anchored onto the page. Do not forget the reason why you're writing this book, which is to highlight the problem of child labor and all the attendant issues of child marriage and all the things that come with it, or maybe the other way around the issue of child marriage and all the issues that all the attendant issues that come with it.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Yeah, yeah. That's that's interesting. So obviously, you decided to write it in uh broken English. And did you ever get anyone at all that read it and felt like it's a little difficult for me to understand or to to kind of follow the the story?

SPEAKER_04 18:20

Yeah, I got that a lot actually. I got that a lot from readers, um, but everyone said to me that something magical happens on page three. There's a magical page three where something happens and suddenly the brain. But I just think it's the brain's ability, the brain struggles at first, adapt, and then if you if you persevere and just get through the first one, two pages, for some reason, by the third page, and in fact, what people then say to me is by the time they get to the end of the book, they begin to think like I didn't speak like I didn't be like, what the heck is happening? These are not Nigerians, these are non-Nigerians, yeah. So, you know, I have somebody read the book and she actually tried to send me an email in Adam's voice, and she's not Nigerian. Are you serious? It's white American. I just find it hilarious. So I think that some people have this ability to adapt to these things, and I think you know, we should experiment more, take more risks. I think you know, take a lot more creative risks.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Sometimes it can be that is true, even with writing, because one thing I've been trying to sort of think about is if I want to create something, I want to write a book or I want to do something um creative, how can I figure out a different way to come at it? Even with like the podcast, you know, I'm I'm thinking, what is a different format? What is a different way that I can come at a story, a creative project? I think it does a lot to unlock a level of creativity that it will be hard at first, you know, because you're not used to thinking like that or doing things like that. But um, and that is one thing I take away from this book is just trying to do something out of the box and you absolutely nailed it with this book. I can't explain.

SPEAKER_04 19:57

Absolutely, and I'll say with the podcast, I would say don't don't second-guess yourself and don't run it by people. Those are two things I would say, and this is the advice I give. I I I didn't run, I think I didn't run my choice by anybody because I knew that, especially the family around me, as supportive as they are, there you know, there could be one or two that would go. I mean, giving an example, and my mother is a typical example. My mother is hugely supportive of my career, but I remember when I won the Bath Novel Award, which is what launched me into all this wonderful stuff. My mother said, Okay, I'm about to book my tickets. Okay, so I've sorry, I've been shortlisted. So my mom sent my name. She's like, Okay, I'm about to book my ticket. I'm coming to support you. Send me the manuscript that's um that is on the shortlist. So I sent it to my mom and she said she, you know, she called me, she said, No, no, no. I said the the one that isn't are you kidding me? The one that is, I said that's the one. She said, uh-uh, it's not in English now. I said, exactly. That's the she said, uh uh, with all your degrees, they need to know, you know. So these are the things, these are the issues. I feel you you you have to, you know, you people are gonna say to you have all these degrees, you need to prove that you can speak very good English, it's quite demeaning and all of whatever it is. But the truth is, creativity cannot be stifled, it cannot be put in a box, you have to run with it, and not everybody is ever gonna get your vision. So I tend not to share um what I'm working on, especially at infancy, with anybody, because it allows me to be fully me. I'm not thinking about your opinions. Good opinions make me feel big-headed again. Big headedness for me is one of the quickest ways to fall because I get I get to a point where I think, oh my gosh, if the this person thinks it's so great, I'm on page three and have no idea what to do next. Yeah, versus you know, this is not gonna work, and I'm thinking this is not gonna work. So getting the feedback from my supervisor was just all I needed. He said this could be publishable if we can finish it. There was no promises attached, he didn't overpraise me. It was just you still need to work hard, and that was in, and that you know, that was enough for me to carry on. That to get to the yeah, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

And I like that you keep mentioning that big-headedness because I have a prayer that I've been praying, which is you know, from the scriptures, like, may I never think of myself more highly than I ought because I think it it it it will kill your creativity when you feel like you've arrived and you've got there. I remember uh I was watching one of your interviews, and um, I think the the interviewer asked you if because you talked about needing validation, because you have uh an MFA in creative writing, right? And um, she talked about uh you talked about needing validation and she she asked you, Do you do you feel validated now as a writer? Do you feel and your answer was just perfect because you you you talked about the fact that there will always be that question, you know, am I a good writer? Yeah, and how do I find out? Write the next book, like do the next thing, keep working.

SPEAKER_04 22:50

Absolutely, absolutely, and and not and and I think maybe getting yourself out of that question of am I a good writer versus am I doing the work that I need to do to get the message that I need to get out, whatever that is, podcasting, music, whatever it is, there's a reason why you're doing and you know, connecting your why to what you're doing is so important because it takes away that need for anything apart from you just working to do the job. So leaving for purpose, right? A purpose for leaving takes away the need for validation and all of that. And you know, I love that. Um, it's great to get your work recognized because, of course, you will be stifled, you will get weary and tired if you're going at say for years and years and years, and nobody recognizes it. But I also believe that it's very hard for you to be consistent at what you do and not one day get a loss. I I find it very difficult, but uh the question is how long is a piece of string? How long is your consistency and at what point will the string break under the pressure of you of expectation? Um which is why you must do what you love. And when you do what you love, then the piece of string can be as long as it takes. Because you're doing what you love, it doesn't matter. One day it would happen. There will be times when you pause and break and cry. I've been some people have listened to my story when I said I'm never gonna write again, I'm gonna be an entrepreneur and start a business, and how I failed at it. I've told that story a few times because I wasn't doing what I loved, and I'm not a great business person. What I am as a storyteller and what I am as a teacher, um, those are the things that I do that I love to do. So when I do those things, then the business side of it just becomes it comes with the package as opposed to me trying to invent my reinvent myself into what I'm not.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah, gosh, I love that. I love that because I just had um I had a podcast interview with um uh a friend, she's on your affair, she's addiction coach and entrepreneur and all that, and she talked about that the fact that it is impossible for you to keep doing something consistently, something you're good at, something you're gifted to do, and not have it at least work at some point. That what happens most of the time is we give up too soon.

SPEAKER_04 26:07

But we're doing what we don't know, we're doing whatever we know we can.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Yes, because that's not we're not in our zone of genius. So, like, how does that go anywhere? But if we know, so if I use you know myself as an example, um, I used to blog, you know, I used to write, but I was never consistent. I was never consistent, and even though I know that I'm gifted to write, um it was a struggle for me. And it took me a while to even get out of the feeling of disappointment in myself because I haven't been able to stay consistently doing that one thing. But also on the flip side of it, um, things have worked out in a way that it makes sense now, not that not that validating the fact that I wasn't consistent, but I think what I was chasing wasn't where God wanted me, wasn't exactly where he wanted me. And I feel like even when it comes to writing and all that, it will come, but I feel like I needed to go through some experiences, I needed to build some other aspects of life and all of that before getting to that point. So, knowing, like you said, knowing what we're supposed to be doing, being in our zone of genius and consistently doing that would definitely you know lead somewhere. Yeah, I love that thought. Tell me about the business you did. I'm curious now. You said you wanted to an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_04 27:33

I decided to start selling shoes. Don't ask me why. Everybody wears shoes, like you've never got there and see people bare feet, right? Except for you know one or two religious reasons. Majority of people wear shoes, everybody wears shoes. So I thought I'm gonna start selling shoes. So I went online and I got this guy and I said to him to build me a website. So he did and was like, the website is ready. So I ordered shoes, and so the shoes came and boxed with shoes everywhere in the house, and we didn't have a tiny flat at the time, everywhere in the house. And so I had the job was to take photos of the shoes and send it to the guy to put onto the website. And so I opened all the shoes, and my husband was like, You know, I mean, there's something really weird happening here. I said, What is that? All your shoes are size four. I wear size four, I have tiny feet, and wear UK size four. So I had ordered only size four shoes. You can imagine 80-90 pairs of shoes, only size four. So he's like, How on earth are you gonna do a business with it? So eventually I gave the shoe up. Then I tried to do to start selling toys. So I bought some toys, um, and I said I'll start this whole Amazon thing. Um, but yeah, I had at the time I had a young girl, a daughter, I mean, she's still here, my daughter, um, but she was a baby, kind of like two, three years old at that time. Like, that's the time, that's the age where everybody has a party, like every Saturday. So, what then happened was every single Saturday, you know, I'm like, what are we giving this person? Like, actually, there's a time I can give them. So I gave all of that out, and that was the end of that business. So then and then I think I ordered, I then said, Okay, fine, I'm gonna go into kitchen utensils. I ordered onion slices. I tried to sell them on eBay, but then I realized that I'm also terrible at math. So the price I put the onion slices, I think it I hadn't, I think I'd sold one or two, and said, My husband sent to me one. He said, Where are you going? I said, I'm gonna post another one. I sold, he said, How much are you selling it for? I told him, he said, How much did you buy you for? I told him, he said, How much was the posting? I told him he said, Yeah, you are making a colossal loss. So I said, Oh, I was making a huge like I was like minus 100%. And it didn't occur to me. So I so I gave everything. I said to my mom when she came to visit, I said, if you ever have a Nigerian party, I have the right souvenir. So that went, there was those three businesses I tried that went down. So I was crawling back into my writing storytelling, just you know, wiped my tears and said, let me do what I what I love to be able to do.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Oh my god, I love the stories. I'm glad I I'm glad I asked you that because I I think I find myself very similar to that. Yeah. Like I don't, I don't, I'm not great with math. And I don't, I don't, I'm not a good business person. So I'll I'll just stick with my creativity. Thank you for giving me the permission to do that. That's amazing. All right, so um, let's talk a little bit more about success in general, right? Because of your success as an author now, I I I'm assuming that maybe some other things have come a tad bit easier. So right now you you have like a coaching, you take on private coaching clients. So maybe getting clients, you know, might be easier and speaking on big stages, obviously, because more people kind of know about you. When you zoom out and all of these experiences, is there any new insights that you've learned about success as a whole? Because, like I said, we're all chasing some success one way or the other, right? We're all chasing success, whether in a traditional career or as a creative in business, we want to be successful, whatever our definition of success is. What have you learned about success now that you know a lot of things have happened for you?

SPEAKER_04 31:03

Well, I think that you know, the I talk about grace, but I also think that opportunity makes preparation is one thing I would say. Um, I don't think I've met anybody that really is an overnight success, apart from maybe somebody who's a video went viral, they did a video, you know, talk about it for 30 seconds, put up a video win viral, and all of a sudden they became this close. You know, I know is that 1% of 1%, yeah. Everybody you meet on the global stage of success has been putting in the work for years. You don't see that because we don't celebrate our failures enough. We all go out there and see Abidari Neo Tanks Bestseller. Well, behind Avi Dari New Trans Bests LR was over a million words that was either rejected or forced into the self-publishing plan. Um, so I think for me it's respecting that. And so whenever I meet people, I respect that um in them. I see drive, I see determination, grace, of course, but there's a lot of that. But also going back to what I say is many of the people I've met, you know, Barrel and Few are really humble, wonderful people, um, successful people, um, that want help as well. So I always had a perceived or a perceived notion, perceived understanding of people up there that they are, you know, aloof, not helpful, not kind, and you know, but they found themselves and they're trying to navigate this as well. And so there comes the trying to understand that not comparing yourself because when you get to meet some of these people and realize they have real issues, they have real life, is they're real, right? So and then have conversations with them. You realize that why on earth was I ever looking up to you and thinking your life was perfect? So understanding that perfection does not exist, you know, people that are success is uh it's a byproduct of how to work, race, determination, but it doesn't it doesn't sort of absolve them from life's issues, and that keeps you very grounded as well, I think I'll say.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah. What what what do you think a lot of us get wrong about or don't know about being like a best-selling author? Because I I'm thinking one of them will probably what she just mentioned, but what do you think we because a lot of writers have that goal, you know, you want to be a best-selling author. What do you think we it's one thing we don't we don't get or we get wrong about it?

SPEAKER_04 33:34

The pressure, the pressure that comes with the next and the next and the next, and um wanting to so when I was trying to write my second book, I didn't recognize myself in what I was writing. I was beginning to write for the people, what I thought the people would want, and it was contrived. It wasn't mean, it wasn't, it felt very false, and I'm glad that I have a team of people that know me and able to call me to say that I don't hear you in the I don't hear Abidari in this. Find Abidari um take the time you need. So trying to be put yourself on a pedestal that nobody has put you on, and making the whole order looking up to me, I have to create another genius um um character like Abne that the whole world is gonna fall in love with, and forcing myself to create what did not come naturally to me. That for me was hard. And getting to the point again, it involves a lot of recalibration, getting to the point where I then had to say to myself, it doesn't really matter, Abby, write what you love, go and write exactly which is right I'm gonna run a sitwall, write where you know, what route we know, what route we are comfortable with, and so writing the sitwall was a comfortable place, but plus I had a lot to still say about the issue of girls in you know in going on poverty. So I think for me that was that um, yes, the ex unreasonable expectations that you kind of pretend yourself, yeah. Yeah, I think it's just insane, and also being in positions where you are you are expected to know everything. So you I mean I remember I was in Italy once and I was asked a very, very difficult political question. I was like, I don't know, you know, it seems because people think you're an author or difficult. I was on Turkish TV, and they asked me about so my I dedicated the book to my mother, um, who is a professor, the first female professor of taxation in Nigeria, and she advises, she advises, you know, she advises the president on tax affairs and stuff, and you know, so she's uh when it comes to economic and taxation of that, she's very there, very far away from me. I'm a creative, I tell stories, I try to make people laugh. So I get onto this TV and it's live TV, and um asked something about the economic situation and what I would advise the president or something. I was like, What? I don't know, ask my mom, like so it's being comfortable enough to say I don't know, I have no answers, that's not me. I'm a storyteller, and even the stuff I write about, I don't 100% know every single thing. Everything about this. There are things I make up, there are things I have to ask the experts and they advise and guide me. So there's that as well, and feeling like, oh my gosh, this is gonna go viral and everybody's gonna talk about me and how I've moved that into myself, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Oh, I love that you I love that you share that because it's good to know these things ahead of time. Because I feel like sometimes if we're mentally prepared for things, you can handle it better when you get there. So if you know now that, okay, these are the expectations that people might have, you know how to like handle it, you know. And I think, I mean, I think that's the best way to have handled it instead of trying to say something that you don't know anything about, which when I said absolute rubbish, when I said to my husband, I've just absolutely said nonsense on the interview, I just opened it with my mouth.

SPEAKER_04 37:07

You learned absolutely rubbish. You can see the interviewer's face going, huh? What did he ask you? What the heck are you saying? But look, I'm only human, you know.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

I love that. I mean, that's a great disposition. I absolutely love it. Yeah, I I hope everyone listening can take something from this because this this is amazing. Thank you for being open and sharing that. Okay, so let's talk about um you you mentioned that you're an extrovert, but there are other did you say kind of? Yeah, kind of. Okay, so let me see. Do you like to spend time with a lot of people around you all the time?

SPEAKER_04 37:47

No, no, but that's why I said kind of. So I'm very much, I would very much retreat, even at home from family. I have many moments. I think many creatives are like that. I have many moments where I'm I just hide um and I don't want to be talked to, I don't want to be seen, I do not want to be touched, get away from me, the world. At that moment, I'm like, hey, let's go. So it depends on the day you get me. Um but you know, generally, I think when I compare myself to so many of us, many of us are very, very reserved, they like their own speakers.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Yeah, introverted.

SPEAKER_04 38:23

Many of them don't like public speaking, you know, they're they're used to that solitude. I love to publicly speak, I love to own podcasts, and I love to teach great writing. So I'm out there, um, at least when it comes from that offer business perspective, yeah. Yeah, I'm out there, but but there are many times I do love my own space.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

I love that. I love that. So, do you have a process for when you have to do press, reading, signing, speaking engagement? How do you prepare mentally for that?

SPEAKER_04 38:53

Um, it depends. I mean, I I pray before every many, many, you know, just Lord God my words and let me speak with with some of you know whatever it is that comes to my mind. Um, but it depends on what it is. If I'm speaking on a on a major like global sort of debate around women's rights and stuff, I need to study. So I study for things like that. I read they some many times they send me material ahead of time. I read that, we have pre-recording sessions or whatever it is, and so many of these interviews and stuff are they are you know, you're prepared. And if I'm going to speak on the stage, thankfully, I'm I I write my speeches and research what I'm saying. Um, there's been the odd time where I've researched and putting the wrong thing into my speech. I remember I did that once, and somebody asked me a question. I I had no idea about it, and I just said, Look, at the end of the day, I'm just a storyteller, so I'm here to tell stories.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

I love it. That's my compound.

SPEAKER_04 39:49

I don't know. I just told you all these wonderful things about policies, but I hate, I have no idea what I've just said. So, you know, when I don't know, I just I I laugh about it and I and I but yes, I prepare, I don't I don't take anything, I I prepare for everything. So even sending me stuff, even though there is stuff that I I kind of know offhand in terms of answers, I still went through it, read it, and said, okay, I can answer these things. I'm comfortable. So I don't take any opportunity for granted. I I try to show every single opportunity I'm given. And and many, many times, uh, many times I some of them I even do book club meetings where it, you know, I remember when I was when I would go Larry West, I had maybe 400 or so events to attend online, and many of them were back to back to back. It was like practically every day for like two years or so. It was very much um, but I try to show up every single time, you know. No, you know, no charges on my time, but it's still for me, it's people that turn over for you, so you turn up for them. Yeah, so I I try to do what I can. I love 200. I'm thinking maybe more like 200 or so, but it was a lot of time.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Yeah, I mean, this is good. This is good. I like that you're talking about these things because I I mean, we know a lot of very successful authors, but we don't know what goes on, we don't know how much work you have to put into all that you have to do. Yeah, it's it sounds like a lot of work, and it's good to know, you know, for people to know that this is what it takes.

SPEAKER_04 41:18

Yeah, and I think when people say, Oh my gosh, you write full time, how amazing. The truth is, if I could have kept my nine to five and done this, I could I would have, but it was ridiculously difficult. Ridiculously difficult. Yes, I can imagine that's a lot of full time, and and so so you you have to get to a point where you realize this is my nine to five, and it's just saying that, and and it doesn't mean it's a life of luxury. People feel that it's a life of luxury, but it's luxury, it's not a life of luxury, it's a love work.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

I mean, I can imagine that.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

But I love that thanks for sharing that. Tell me about the Harvard. Um it's not an interview. What did you do? Was it a storytelling masterclass? It was a keynote speech.

SPEAKER_04 41:59

Keynote speech. Um, to kick off the conference, student conference, and um then a masterclass the next day. So I taught a workshop for masterclass the next day.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

How how did how did you prepare for that? How did that go?

SPEAKER_04 42:13

Oh, that was a whole lot of work. That was a whole that was you know, writing the speech, especially because you're thinking it's Harvard, like everybody there is smart. Yeah, and it wasn't it, it was a it was a conference, even I called it a student conference, it wasn't a student conference, it was organized by the students, it was an entrepreneurship conference, it was a social entrepreneur conference with people that have businesses that serve for public good, so you know, social in the center of social issues. So social entrepreneurs from all over the world were flying in for it, and and um I was given the so I was given the key, I was kick starting the conference with my speech, and it was I felt like oh my goodness. So rewriting the speech, you know, practicing the kitchen to my kids, and I'm like, you know, standing in the kitchen, I'm like, my name is Abrida, and my daughter was like, nah, it's too loud, calm down, you know, so all of that, or glazed look on their face. I'm like, am I boring you? And they're like, Yeah, lost you there. So making so that everybody could understand my speech, and my brother could maybe love, you know, love my family. Oh, that's it. So like, look, I'm you know, I'm booking it together on time with you because I know you need this work. So he was there as well, and then the masterclass like this for the masterclass of talking about writing, storytelling, which comes naturally to me. So that was easy. But I was nervous, I'm always nervous before I start to speak, and then it gets so all of those things are very natural. Um just prepare and just take deep breaths and find a friendly face in the audience, talk to that friendly face, all the wonderful stuff that I hear that other great sort of speakers have have said. I take that on board and I just go and do what I can. So that's what I did.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Yeah, yeah, I love it. It's awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. So I know we've talked about you not being an entrepreneur and you just being a storyteller and trying to stay in your lane, but generally, I think you've probably answered this, but I'll still ask this question because I want to really hear your perspective in this direction. How do you view the business side of your creativity? So, not just business as a whole, because whether we like it or not, it's still a business. There's a business side to creativity, you know. I know that a lot of creatives, me included, have seen it as a necessary evil because come on, we're creative, we just want to do the art and focus on that. So, how do you say it? Is it like a necessary evil for you or an exciting part of the journey, thinking about how you're gonna make money from your creativity?

SPEAKER_04 44:40

The truth is that pursuing your creativity and doing stuff with it over a prolonged period of time without any money, without any money to gain after a while becomes a chore. That's the truth, especially if you're 100% relying on it. So, what I always say to people is it's insane for you to rely 100% on your creativity without having a means of income. Because until it starts to play you, you really shouldn't 100%. Rely on it because you will begin to put money before creativity, and when you do that, you've killed your creativity. If you get to a point where it's able to pay you, then you it becomes a delicious, a kind of a delicious challenge because now you're creating, you're earning from it, you're enjoying the process. The truth is, for a lot of us creatives, it takes a long time to begin to earn anything meaningful to be able to, and sometimes for some people it never happens. And for those that it never happens for, it's that's even okay. A lot of writers have kept their full-time jobs for various reasons. That's okay. In fact, a lot of writers do other things, I do other things, it's not just writing itself. So that's that's fine, but I think it's important. So, me for me, it's trying to understand apart from the writing, because the business of writing is taking is is it's kind of different for me because I have a whole an entity around that, so agents, publishers, and all that. So they kind of for me, it's a teaching, it's the coaching, it's charging what is right for my time. It's saying, Abby, you need to stop being too nice. So I'm the kind of person that I'll get an email from a from a writer who is really struggling with their work, and they write a really sweet email. Oh my gosh, Miss Jarry, especially a young writer, I love your work, blah blah blah. I'm such a fan. I've written this, and and I'm finding myself going into the manuscript and already making changes because I'm like, oh, I don't know. And then I'm probably thinking, Abby, time is money, they're all thinking. So it's it's re-educating myself on things like that and saying, I understand that, but here is a booking form. If you want to have a conversation with me, you need to pay for that time. Many times I do free stuff when I'm doing free charity stuff, turn up for those, but don't take away this time that I could be using to do other things. Um, because imagine multiply that one lovely sweet email by a thousand, and then all of a sudden you're not in any way productive. So it's important for you to understand what you know, what you're worth, charge what you're worth, but at the same time have empathy for people that cannot afford some of these things and who have real talents and a genuine passion for remember people who are you were once where they are, yeah. And so that's the thing I tell myself all the time. I was once where this person is, where I would have given anything to have a New York Times bestselling author spend five minutes of their time, which is why I do my Instagram lives. I come up on Instagram live, and some people ask me, Why on earth are you doing that? You should be charging for that. I come on that and I say, ask me any question you have about your writing. So that's my free time. If you want to learn from me, join my Instagram. I do that for free. But if you have a piece, 5,000 words that you're writing and you need somebody to look at it for you, you need to pay for that time because I paid for that time when I was doing chasing my own dreams. So it's really that. So I think my advice is keep up what provides income for you while you're choosing your creativity until the point where your creativity is able to pay for itself, then you can take a step back and expand as well.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

That makes sense. That makes sense. That's awesome. So I was gonna, you've probably answered a little bit of this, but I'm still gonna ask you because I want to kind of see um what you might be able to provide for the listeners. So can you share three tips for creatives who want to profit from their passion? So they want to, like we've said, somehow be able to make some money from the thing that they're doing, whether they're writing, creating art or whatever it is. Any quick tips for them?

SPEAKER_04 48:40

First number one is invest in yourself first. I think it's you can never be um you can never perform at optimal value, you can never perform or give optimal value out if you don't invest in yourself. What I might mean by investing yourself, attend training courses, read books on your craft, yeah, put in the time and the effort to do that. When you do that, you will get to a point where you become irresistible. And so when you name a price, people would might question it, but the truth is they will know they're paying for value because you have invested in yourself. So that leads to the next thing, which is charge what you're worth. So when I sit down with and with my some of my coaching clients, and now I'm trying to do a bit more to expand because dealing one-on-one with people is is it's too time consuming for me. I'm trying to see what I can do to make it bigger. But the question is when I come to the table and I'm speaking to a group of 10-12 people, and I'm not paid for by company, they're paying me. I need to remember that I've been at this, I've been grinding this thing since for 20 years. So the abidarium meeting today is an abidari that 20 years ago was attending courses. I remember then I would attend a storytelling course at whatever it is, pay 200 pounds, pay 100 pounds, pay this person, pay that person. I've invested in myself, and so I'm charging what I'm worth. So when you turn up to my workshops, I'm hoping to give you back all of what I've learned. So that's number two. As a creative, you know, it's important to you. And then number three is the same thing I've always said make sure it's your passion because you would not always make money from this. There's gonna they're gonna be dry moments, they're gonna be quiet moments. In those quiet moments, let your passion keep you going. And passion plus consistency would always equal to profit. Eventually, you know, I was just speaking to my brother who is he's now got his own YouTube channel. He's fantastic at um document, he has a documentary voice. I said to him, You sound like National Geographic, you know, channel or something. He does, but it took him. I mean, I was always always saying to him, Go do this, go do this. And now he's doing that, and he's getting followers, and he's he's excited about it. And I and I said to him, I said, Look, eventually you're gonna get to a point where you're gonna hit that, you know, sweet, whatever that sweet spot is, and you're earning from it, and you're gonna look back and remember how far you've come. But the truth is, if you don't enjoy it, you're gonna give up somewhere. And the the final thing, I know you said three, but the final thing is don't give up. So, you know, going back to what you said, you said you you know you had a passion for writing and you stopped, and you life would always get in the way. So, when people ask me how were you able to keep writing to young children, at the time when I was doing my master's degree, I had a full-time, very demanding job. My husband was not in town. I'm married to a very Nigerian man. Um, I live in the United Kingdom where there's no there's no help, there's no there are no drivers, there's nobody.

SPEAKER_01 51:38

Yeah, by the way.

SPEAKER_04 51:38

And so I and I was trying to write the girl with a louding voice, and that was my most productive time because I basically stripped myself of everything called pleasure to finish that book because I had a goal in front of me, I had a vision in front of me, and I felt I there was such an urgency in my spirit, and I I approach every project with that kind of urgency. Well, I tried to, because if I had not finished the book at the time I finished it, I would have missed the the deadline of the Bath Novel Award, and that you would not have heard about Abidare today. And so, opportunity is preparation. You never know what is around the corner that is saying, Remy, what have you got? So, what have you got is the years that you were consistent, the years you're working hard behind the scenes, crying, slaving away. That what have you got moment is what could change everything for you. So you don't want to arrive at that moment and think, oh my goodness, I don't have anything, or I don't have enough, or I'm not ready. And that's it.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

That's powerful.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

That is absolutely powerful. Thank you for sharing that. It it does speak to me directly because, like I said, I've been there. So yeah, this is helpful. And I hope uh friends listening really take this to heart because especially in times like this, a lot of people are wanting to depend on what I can do, you know, what what are my gifts, what are my passions, what can I pursue outside of you know the the traditional thing that can really um help me support my family, help me do this, help me do that, live the kind of life that I want to live. And it is hard, it is hard, and I'm glad that you know you've been very clear and open about that. It is hard, but it is doable. So I hope this, yeah, this tips are definitely going to help anyone listening if they take it to heart. So thank you for sharing that. Will the girl with a louding voice be turned into a movie? Do you want that?

SPEAKER_04 53:33

We shall wait and see. It'll be amazing, it'll be really amazing to see it come to the screen. But that I wouldn't watch that, but we'll have to wait and see what comes out of that.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

Awesome, awesome. So, can you give us a tidbit about the next book?

SPEAKER_04 53:48

So it starts um a week after um Adeni leaves Big Madam's house. She's at Tia's house, her friend that she met, and very excited to start her school, which she won hard won place, uh, hard one scholarship at Ocean Academy. It's the night before, and there's a knocking at the gate, and all of a sudden, Adeni has to be taken dragged back to her village to face charges for uh murder that she did not commit, or did she? I we don't know. And so we have 24 hours of intense, um um kind of three-day-like parts of it uh you know, parts of it are slowed down for where Adeni has to fight for herself, but not just for herself, but the the women, the girls in her village, but then there's also Tia who misses needs to make a choice whether to follow to discover this the secret her dying mother has been hiding from her for 20 years, or to go with Aduni. So she's sort of stuck in between the two, and she has to make her decision very quickly. So it's really that you know the book features um a witty book of wisdom. So Aduni writes a book within a book. Um, there is also a talk show in the middle of a forest, themes around climate change, themes around friendship, themes around using your voice, themes around empowerment. It's a beautiful book, both heartbreaking and joyful. And I hope the readers are gonna love it as much as I loved writing it.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

Oh my god, I know they will. I loved The Girl with the Louding Voice. I cannot wait to read the next one. What's the title? And so I roar, right?

SPEAKER_04 55:14

And so I roar because that didn't literally be things. She goes, My louding voice is not for you, so I'm gonna roar.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

Oh my god, I love it. I cannot wait. I cannot wait. Thank you so much, Abby. This has been amazing. Um, let's talk about what you do and how people can work with you. So tell us about your coaching business and what you help, how you help authors and writers, and yeah, let's share about that.

SPEAKER_04 55:39

One-on-one, I do coaching. Um, with that, I'm more selective and we work on your manuscripts, especially people that feel like I have that gift, I have that talent, but I don't know if this is good enough, I don't know if I'm doing the right thing. So I go in like an editor, but also a coach. So I'm the one that would say, What is your next scene gonna look like? What's your next chapter looking like? And then when you send it to me, I go through it, edit lighthead edits but substantial edits. Um, and just so we then have a call on Zoom or whatever it is, and we go through it and I try to tease out where you're trying to get to. So it's a proper end-to-end working relationship. It's fun, I've been told it's fun. You know, a lot of my clients laugh a lot because I I'm harsh but friendly. But the truth is you would never be the same rider if you work with me ever. That is one thing I guarantee you. You can't work with me and come out being the same rider as you started. And then I also do a lot of creative writing courses. I'm gonna do a little more masterclasses, and I'm looking to do a wider coaching program where I can get 20, 30 people together and work for six months because I feel like that's a better. I think I give more of myself that way to more people than to do one-on-one because that just takes a long time. Because I'm not working with somebody for six, seven, eight months. Yes, because they want to get to the end of their book. And I've I've had some successes with some of my clients who've had gone on to fact that it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

That's great. Thank you for sharing that. So I'm gonna leave the links to your website uh and yeah, and how people can learn more about your offerings and all that you do. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy this conversation, please take a moment to follow or subscribe to the podcast. I'd also love your feedback on this episode. You can scroll down on your app and click write a review. I'd love to read your takeaways from this conversation. As always, don't forget to take courage, trust God, and go pursue your big ideas. See you next time. The Driven Interval is produced by TPAC.com and Remy Roy, which support from Candice Zachariah and Ayichat Onaruajo. Want to ask a question or share a comment in a future episode? Click on the link in the show notes to record your question in a voice talk.